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Next topic for discussion: Complicated
respiratory disorders like COPD or ILD, Bronchiectasis, allergic bronchitis - according to #Ayurveda
Ayulink:
According to Ayurveda books Charak has described Swas roga in length and
details. Can we correlate them with modern lables? Let me start with COPD and
ILD are not asthma. It's completely different conditions. Can anyone
differentiate between bronchitis and bronchiectasis, allergic bronchitis and
asthma?
Dr. Piyush
Dodiwadiya: Bronchitis is an inflammation – reversible. May
present with fever dry cough sometime productive cough. Bronchiectasis is a
permanent dilation of alveoly – irreversible. Plenty of sputum will be there,
history of continue coughing, morning hours plenty of sputum.
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Ayulink:
Similarly COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease) makes it hard for you to
breathe. The two main types are chronic bronchitis and emphysema.
Interstitial lung disease is a general category that includes many
different lung conditions. All interstitial lung diseases affect the
interstitium, a part of the lungs' anatomic structure. All forms of
interstitial lung disease cause thickening of the interstitium. The thickening
can be due to inflammation, scarring, or extra fluid (edema). Some forms
of interstitial lung disease are short-lived; others are chronic and
irreversible.
Now today's topic
is how to correlate these modern terms with out science. How to interpret and
treat with our science .
Dr. Bhavesh Modh:
महाश्वास - The person, in whom the expiratory movement of वात is aroused is greatly afflicted and
being obstructed in his respiration,
breathes incessantly with a loud &
long stertor like an intoxicated bull. He
loses all sense of knowledge and understanding.. His eyes are
restless, His face gets distorted , His urine & faces get constipated ,His
voice is weakened , He gets into a moribund state & his intensely hurried
breathing is noticeable even from a distance ,A person afflicted with this greatest of disorders of breathing will indeed succumb to it
soon... च. चि. अ. हिक्का श्वास .THUS HAS BEEN
DESCRIBED DYSPNEA MAJOR_ ~ *Terminal Dyspnea*
उध्व श्वास = Expiratory
Dyspnea...
छिन्न श्वास = Cheynestoke's
Respiration
तमकश्वास - Bronchial Asthma
संतमक श्वास = Cardiac Asthma
Dr. Madhuri Patil
Chaudhari: Kshudra Shwas- can we consider it as Swabhavbalpravrutta vyadhi or pathological conditiin due to various reasons?
how to differentiate? esp. if lung cancer is not detected but 1st symptom is
breathlessness only
Dr. P. A.
Deshpande: Recently
I have put my thoughts on use of
tulsi ,H2O2 nebuliser treatment cronic resparatory disorders. How successfully we can treat such pts a case discussion below
first video of pt of COPD. She was on
non stop oxygen support bed ridden for more than 5 years. before 3 moths.
She was diagnose.. Glayo blastona
with sever additional physical problems. Age 79 -no treatment was available and rejected
. I started purely my advanced
naturopathy treat blastom. Treatment just in one months agressive treatment
of 40 days the oxygen support is more and MRI shows reduction tumour. Now pts walks
independently with walker look her face . Both eyes have now normal level.
Ayulink:
Still our questions remain unclear. What kind of different approach we need to
handle these respiratory complains.Tamake tu virechanam is there. But what
about cardiac asthma? What about bronchiectasis? Or ILD? Fibrosis is due to vata aggravation and if we give ruksha
treatment considering it as kapha symptoms, it will not respond. Some herbs are
common like ajwain, Tulsi etc can be used blindly in all conditions as they control Vata and
Kapha both. But let's share our experiences with precise line of treatment.
Dr. P. A.
Deshpande: I will try to explain from naturopathy angle
. for this we consider conditions before disease, after disease. Main cause of problem is
lack of pranayam. If we observe
our breathing is shallow and below required level due to stress and tension. This is from childhood
and ultimately it becomes habit. The
lungs become lithargic inactive . So
natural process of inhale / exhaust
suffer. Become week. I remember
in initial programe of Yog Guru Ramdev
Baba he was explaining his childhood
healt proble
Ayulink:
In most cases, I have observed that we treat all respiratory problems almost in same manner. With same herbs or
formulations.
Dr. Pritam Veer:
may be but I don't diagnose these big term diseases. I diagnose only dosh '
which dosh aggravated or dosh dushti sthan vaigunya.
Ayulink:
It's like whenever we look at any respiratory disease we go for
svaskaschintamani, pippali, Trikatu, bharangmul, kantakari, vasa etc. And I
have seen that many times it has not worked at all in cases of Fibroma or ILD. Proper
diagnosis - may be as per ayurveda or modern , must be there.
Dr Jayesh Patel:
Sometimes we use vitasti bhasm in acute condition With honey.Pt is feeling
better within minutes. I think it work as bronco- dilator
Ayulink: But
many modern diagnosis and understanding are difficult to interpret in our
terms. Same way our terminology cannot explain such conditions like lungs
Fibroma. Bronchodilator or expectorant does not work in copd or ILD
Dr. P. A.
Deshpande: The efforts taken to correct through Yoga
Sadhana diet he mastered all health problems. The quantity of burnt gases in lungs is around five litres.
These toxic gases harms lungs and create favourable atmosphere for bacteria and
viruses . Slowly problem developed and agravates now to find out solution and reversal we have
strengthn lungs with pranayam diet exercise and medicines to support
recovery. I have developed a innovative
system of prayam which has proved very
effective. Take one litr plastic bottle
fill with water. Take plastic tube ( RT
12 no) deep one end in water and other
in mouth. Take deep breath through nose and exel it through mouth slowly . The
pressure if water column in tube creates
condition to exhale all satured gases through out body. Lungs starts improving its strength to its
required level and defeat disease of its own.
effective.
Ayulink: As
these conditions does not have any problem with bronchi. But when elasticity of
lungs are lost and fibrous muscles get rigid. That creates difficulty in lung
functions. And breathlessness is most common symptom.This is a kind of
situation thay whenever we hear any complaints related with heart we start
prescribing Arjuna. But we don't know exactly where Arjuna can work better or
can't work.Bronchitis and bronchiectasis should have different approach.
Similarly lung Fibroma and asthma needs complete opposite line of treatment. Asthma
is more concerned with bronchi and it's capacity of exhale and inhale. But
Fibroma is related with fibrous tissues of the lung, which are responsible for
inflation- deflation etc. Now how can we
treat both conditions same way? Bronchi or alvioly are different structure -
dhatu, updhatu and inflammation is different condition, while stiffness or
dryness or rigidness of fibrous tissue
is different condition. But both conditions are expressed by breathlessness.
There I am confused. Should I treat them as Maha svash or tamak svash ?
Dr. Madhuri Patil
Chaudhari: Very true. We need to list all conditions,
granthokta, where shwas and or Kaas is
metioned as purvrup or rup. To dd properly.
Ayulink: I
know we ayurveda doctors are not having large number of patients of COPD or
ILD, but it is always good to know. ILD is considered as terminal illness.
Patient when cones to us they are fully aware that they are not going to be
cured. Or they are going to be deteriorated till death. Allopath doctors also
knows it and they inform the patient the same. But when patient comes to us, it
is our duty to give most comfort and try to avoid side effects of modern
medicines.
I have nearly 35
patients of ILD in last 2 -3 years, that forced me to think again and
again. I could not find any similar or
exact description in books. I tired with panchkarma - Virechan and basti
course. That gave me and my patients some improvement. Few patients felt
comfort till last minute and they passed away silently. Family members of such
patients gave credit to Ayurveda. In few cases, the patient who were constant on oxygen were able to reduce
oxygen dependability. So panchkarma works in such cases that I can say.
Particulary I believe that snehan works better. Marta basti works better then
niruha basti. But no ruksha guna herbs, no kapha reducing herbs worked in my
any patients.
I have specific
approach with ayurveda treatment, which is strictly observed and compliment by
modern leading chest physician. Surprisingly Dr. Gopal Raval, a leading
pulmonologist in the city is very happy to see the improvement and he referred
ayurveda book for more detauls. But still I want to know more from ayurveda
books. If someone can help me to interpret or understand these conditions.
Dr. Mrugeshkumar
Patel: cupping
therapy is effective in copd,bronchial asthma ?
Ayulink: I am not aware. Frankly it is
not a part of syllabus in our Ayurveda education.
Dr. P. A.
Deshpande: No, Cupping has no role in COPD. Dear all. It is good that serious concern is noticed.
Fibroma or fibrosis is soft and can be managed with combined treatment
of Ayurveda and advanced naturopathy developed by me. C O P D case how I
treated successfully has been
explained. If sufficient cases say 5 I
can send my team to Ahmedabad fir demo
and training. it help practitioners and
pts. Soft fibrom or fibrosis can also be managed . Of course faith is necessary
Dr. Madhuri Patil
Chaudhari: Is lung fibrosis reversible like liver
fibrosis. But liver tissues have a better rate of regeneration than lung
tissues. So, asking. I have not managed such a patient. But post Koch's
fibrosis. Leading to
breathlessness, how to manage such
cases as per Ayurveda.
Ayulink:
According to modern doctors, it is not reversible. It is terminal disease.
Slowly patient can't breathe properly, depends on oxygen most of the time of
day and night, and ultimately dies with lot of pain and discomfort. They also
try with steroids and heavy drugs to give relief and comfort. But in my
experience, Ayurveda gives more comfort till death. It is very serious
condition where all - patient, doctors and Ayurveda Vaidya and family members -
all know the final condition of the patient and yet we have to do our best.
Dr. Madhuri Patil
Chaudhari: Rasayana Chikitsa for Pranvah strotas, can it
work for fibrosis? Abhrak bhasma is
mentioned for improving Pranvah strotas bal or immunity. Has any1 tried Abhrak
bhasma in such cases? I have only one case, post Kochs fibrosis, very limited
damage,but seems to hv worked fine. As no kaas n shwas a little better.
Dr. Ravibhusan S
Sonawale: Vardhman pimpili rasayan also useful
Ayulink:
Tried in several cases. No significant response. Not used any bhasma, as i
don't have quality assurance for bhasma . And this is not a condition where you
can make many trial and errors.
Dr. Madhuri Patil
Chaudhari: Yes if Kaphanubandhi. If Pitta more,, then hv
to be used judiciously. Exactly that’s why i asked. Ethical considerations.
Ayulink: Lung fibrosis according to me
is Vata major problem. Anything becomes stiff or rigid or dry means the vata is
increased. Particularly in fiber tissues vata in increased. May be we can term
as 'snayu gat vata'. And that's why I use more Sneha or matra basti. Which give
me more hopes and responses. Snayu or Kandara gat vata.
Dr. Madhuri Patil
Chaudhari: Snayugat vaat causing dhaatukshay esp maans
and med..or asthi majja dhaatu located@
lungs. ? If we understand Samprapti properly we can think of ways to treat. I
hv nt understood full smprapti of Fibrosis.
Dr. Supratim Bir:
Katinya can't be alone by Vata, it should be Vata kapha involvement.
Dr. Madhuri Patil
Chaudhari: Nature of fibrotic structure. Brittle, hard,
etc. As per gruvadi 20 gunas. Yes vaat n kapha. Aakashiy and Pathiv if we think
on Panchbhautik siddhant.
Pradip hira:
I have treated only 1 patient, in 2006, pt. Was suffering from pulmonary
fibrosis/COPD with Hyperthyroidism also. I have given vardhman pippali for 40
days in winter, increase from 1to 20 then decreased. Also used shrung bhashma,
kajjali, abhrak bhashma and other medicines. When i started pt.'s age was 69,
pt was on oxygen for 20hrs a day, not able to walk. After treatment of 6
months, oxygen reduce to 2 hrs/day. continue treatment of 2 years give very
good result. Pt was able to walk, do her daily works, without any allopathic or
ayurvedic medicines. After that pt. Lives for more 7 years without any
complaints of COPD.
Dr. Supratim Bir:
In lung fibrosis the condition may be sannipatik as the inflammatory condition
is triggered from pitta Axis.
Ayulink:
I have use some parameters to know improvement, like, Walking capacity - how many steps or meters
patient can walk, Stair climbing
capacity - how many steps patient can climb. Oxygen dependability - how long
per day and with how much pressure (many patients does not need oxygen in
initial stage)
Dr. Vishva Joshi:
In Ild and pul fibrosis we can see the' rukshata ', so in this case we can
treat gunviparit snigdh chikitsa, and I think it should work, We can't
get exact ayu diagnosis of all allopathy disease,
Gary Yuen: Has
anyone noted dietary patterns in those with lung disorders? There are several
modern studies linking increased consumption of fruits and vegetables with
lower risk of COPD and other lung disorders. Certain substances such as
sulforaphane (found in brassicas: cauliflower, mooli, with higher sources being
mustard greens & moringa) have also been found to be protective against air
pollution, cigarette smoke, and other lung irritants.There are also studies
linking frequent meat and fish intake with increased risk of asthma, including
a study among Indians. This one finds dairy (milk) associated with lower risk
along with fruits and vegetables, though other studies have found milk to
increase asthma risk.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4284294/
Vd. Anand R
Dugal: Dear friends in ayurvedic point of view hetu finding is to be must rather
labelling it. As samhitas itself speak about hetu then purvarup then lakshan
then samprapti so that what ayurved work
i guess. i believe and practicing on the behalf of samhita said and
result are much better and all is that how much we understand samhita and follow
it to apply on patient even for all diseases
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